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Oscar-winning filmmaker Guillermo del Toro was a child in Mexico the first time he watched the 1931 movie Frankenstein. He describes the iconic scene where the monster first lurches into the doorway as nothing short of "an epiphany."
"I saw the resurrection of the flesh, the immaculate conception, ecstasy, stigmata. Everything made sense," del Toro says. "I understood my faith or my dogmas better through Frankenstein than through Sunday mass."
It was then, at age 7, that del Toro decided the creature of Frankenstein would be "my personal avatar and my personal messiah," he says.
Del Toro's film credits include Pan's Labyrinth, Nightmare Alley and The Shape of Water, which won four Oscars, including best picture and best director. Now, with Frankenstein, he reimagines Mary Shelley's 1818 classic, telling the final part of the story from the creature's point of view.
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Some of the film's themes echo ideas del Toro's explored throughout his career, including misunderstood creatures, men who behave like monsters and science experiments gone awry. A self-described "groupie for death," del Toro's also interested in the allure — and the torment — of everlasting life.
"I'm a huge fan of death. ... I think it's the metronome of our existence," he says. "Without rhythm, there is no melody, you know? It is the metronome of death that makes us value the compass of the beautiful music."
Interview highlights
On designing a creature that looked nothing like the original Frankenstein
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It has a very Byronian, very doomed, very Wuthering Heights sort of look of a doomed hero. And when he's first born, and is bald and almost naked, I wanted it to feel like an anatomical chart, like something newly minted. ... The head is patterned after phrenology manuals from the 1800s. So they have very elegant, almost aerodynamic lines. I wanted this alabaster or marble, statue feel, so it feels like a newly minted human being. And we also tried to make it the way I remember the Jesus images, life size, in the churches of my childhood.
On getting over his fear of death when he was younger
As a young man, my grandmother and I had a very precarious sense of death and life. My grandmother would say good night to me every day and say, "Let us pray that I'm here tomorrow." And that is pretty intense for a 4 or 5 year old to hear. Sometimes I would sleep at the foot of her bed and I would be listening in the dark for her breathing. And if the breathing ceased, even for two seconds, I would be jolted and take a look to see if she was OK. And that stayed with me for many decades.
Related Story: NPR
I don't fear that anymore. I feel losing people, yes, but me, I'm not afraid of dying. … Right when the lights flutter and you are no longer a director or a general or a pope — right when you become just you and and the lights are flickering out that's when you realize what you did or didn't do in your life and that's the most momentous thing anyone can experience and you can go with great agitation or great peace.
On how his life changed after his father won the lottery in 1969 when he was 5
We moved into a house and lived a very sort of strange life. I mean, we had all sorts of pets. We had eagles, a pet lion, 30 dogs, deer. … We had a zoo. Like Danny in The Shining, I could go on my tricycle for hours in the long corridors sometimes, like a magic realism novel. I would go for weeks without seeing a single adult. I would find food on the fridge, I would find clean clothes on my drawers, and I didn't interact with many adults. I was existing in a mysterious life in an enchanted castle. …
One of the things [my father] did is he bought a library and filled it with books that he never read, but I read them all. And that's where I read the encyclopedia of anatomy and health, and that's where I read all the classics, Moby Dick, Tom Sawyer, Huckleberry Finn, Edgar Allan [Poe], Oscar Wilde.
On generative AI
My concern is not artificial intelligence, but natural stupidity. I think that's what drives most of the world's worst features. But I did want it to have the arrogance of Victor [Frankenstein] be similar in some ways to the tech bros. He's kind of blind, creating something without considering the consequences and I think we have to take a pause and consider where we're going. ...
AI, particularly generative AI — I am not interested, nor will I ever be interested. I'm 61, and I hope to be able to remain uninterested in using it at all until I croak. ... The other day, somebody wrote me an email, said, "What is your stance on AI?" And my answer was very short. I said, "I'd rather die."
On the current ICE crackdowns in LA
I have a wallet the size of a leather portfolio and I always carry my papers. I have been stopped in the past and asked to show my papers in the past, and asked pointed questions in the past, pulled aside in immigration in the past. So I have all my papers with me at all times and it is a very difficult time when there is no voice for the other. And I think that understanding that the other is you is crucial.
Lauren Krenzel and Anna Bauman produced and edited this interview for broadcast. Bridget Bentz, Molly Seavy-Nesper and Beth Novey adapted it for the web.
Transcript
TERRY GROSS, HOST:
This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. The great filmmaker Guillermo del Toro has written and directed a new reimagining of "Frankenstein." It takes inspiration from the 1931 film "Frankenstein," one of the first, best and most enduring horror monster films, but mostly from Mary Shelley's 1818 novel, "Frankenstein," which many consider to be the first science fiction book. She was only 18 when she wrote it. In del Toro's movie, the final part of the story is told from the creature's point of view. Some of the themes of his new film echo themes that he's been obsessed with for years - misunderstood creatures, men who behave like monsters, father-son relationships, religion, empathy, cruelty, misguided scientific experiments that take a terrible turn and what del Toro describes as the uneasy truce between science and religion, machine and man, and the realization that you are inescapably alone. His other movies include, "Pan's Labyrinth," "The Shape Of Water," which won four Oscars, including best picture and best director, "Nightmare Alley," a reimagining of "Pinocchio" filmed in stop-motion animation and two "Hellboy" films.
In del Toro's "Frankenstein," Oscar Isaac plays Dr. Victor Frankenstein, the surgeon who wants to create new life - a new man built out of body parts from the newly dead. The creature he creates is played by Jacob Elordi, who's best known for co-starring in "Euphoria" and also played Elvis Presley in the Sofia Coppola movie "Priscilla." Del Toro grew up in Guadalajara, Mexico, and lives in LA.
Guillermo del Toro, welcome to FRESH AIR. Congratulations on your new film, which brings together so much of your other work. And I know it's a dream come true for you to do your own version of "Frankenstein." You first saw the movie - the 1931 movie, which is totally different from the book and your new movie, but that movie really had a hold on you. Tell us why it had such meaning for you.
GUILLERMO DEL TORO: Well, it was, curiously enough, on a Sunday after Catholic Mass. We came back home, and then we would watch horror movies on Channel 6 all day. And it was the first time I saw "Frankenstein." And the moment Boris Karloff crossed the threshold, I have an epiphany. I have a St. Paul on the road to Damascus kind of experience. I realized I understood my faith or my dogmas better through "Frankenstein" than through Sunday Mass. I saw the resurrection of the flesh, the immaculate conception, ecstasy, you know, stigmata. Everything made sense. And I decided at age 7 that the creature of Frankenstein was going to be my personal avatar and my personal messiah. It was a really profound transformation, and it made an impression that lasted my whole life.
GROSS: Can you compare how you saw the story as a 7-year-old to how you see it now?
DEL TORO: Well, I saw it as a son when I saw it first, and now I see it as a father. And more poignantly, I have become my father whilst trying to run away from the same mistakes of absence or, you know, mysterious emotions that I couldn't figure out as a kid. And I had a really profound moment to be able to reconcile this knowledge with a beautiful talk with my own kids and stop this lineage of pains. And, you know, fathers are a big shadow, particularly in Latin American families, I imagine.
GROSS: What's the pain you're referring to...
DEL TORO: You know, the...
GROSS: ...When talking about your relationship with your father?
DEL TORO: It is - my father was always a mystery, and he was really funny and warm. But by turns, he was also aloof and distant and had a lot of problem. Even, you know, when he came back from the kidnapping - he was taken 72 days, and I said, I'm going to get to know him real well. And our conversations never lasted more than a few minutes, you know? And he just couldn't, and I didn't understand that. And I realized that particularly with my profession, I have a huge alibi to repeat this distance. And I unfortunately couldn't either leave on time to really change it and become a very dedicated father.
GROSS: You mentioned the kidnapping. He was kidnapped and held for a million-dollar ransom.
DEL TORO: Yeah.
GROSS: And you managed to get the money...
DEL TORO: Yeah.
GROSS: ...To pay the kidnappers...
DEL TORO: Yeah.
GROSS: ...And rescue your father.
DEL TORO: Yes.
GROSS: And that's - my understanding is that's why you moved to the U.S. - because...
DEL TORO: Yeah.
GROSS: ...Of death threats.
DEL TORO: Yeah. Well, it was the constant threat and the PTSD, et cetera. But a lot of the moments that happened during that kidnapping are actually obliquely reflected in the film. I tried to make it an autobiography of the soul for me.
GROSS: There's three parts of the movie. There's the introduction.
DEL TORO: Yes.
GROSS: Then there's the story told pretty much from Dr. Frankenstein's point of view. And then the final part is told from the creature's point of view.
DEL TORO: Yes.
GROSS: I really wanted to read Mary Shelley's novel, which I've never read, before speaking to you again.
DEL TORO: Yeah.
GROSS: And I wasn't able to find the time to do it.
DEL TORO: Yes.
GROSS: I did, however, read your introduction to, like - I think it's a 2021 annotated version of...
DEL TORO: Yes.
GROSS: ...Her novel. But anyways, in Mary Shelley's original telling of the story, is there a chapter that's from the creature's point of view, or is that just something you wanted to do?
DEL TORO: No, no, no, it is. And there are so many things that are in the novel. You know, that is one of them. When the creature meets Victor in the frozen North, he says, well, this is what happened to me. And he proceeds to tell him his itinerary of degradation and humanization and learning the language with the family of the hermit. You know, all of that is in the novel, but it's been rarely articulated. And I found that hinging the movie in the middle was structurally the best way to make the audience almost get a jolt and say, oh, I've never seen this before. Even if it's been dramatized briefly in other versions, this is the one that tracks the creature in a distinct chapter. It starts in the frozen North and is very discreet in color. Then you have childhood and young age of Victor, which is idealized and very heightened visually by the fact that Victor is telling the story. And then the fairy tale, like...
GROSS: I'm glad you said fairy tale.
DEL TORO: Yeah. Yeah.
GROSS: 'Cause it seems - that seems to me like the part from Dr. Frankenstein's point of view, you know, has elements of, like, horror film...
DEL TORO: Yes.
GROSS: ...And monster film.
DEL TORO: Yeah.
GROSS: But the second part, it's set in the woods.
DEL TORO: Yeah.
GROSS: It's like a fairy tale.
DEL TORO: In that little cabin.
GROSS: Yeah. And the old blind man, it's kind of a very fairy tale...
DEL TORO: Yes.
GROSS: ...Benevolent character.
DEL TORO: Yes.
GROSS: There are spirits in the woods, and...
DEL TORO: And he's guided. The creature is guided by all sorts of animals into understanding the world.
GROSS: Yeah. And the blind old hermit thinks that - because he can't see, he doesn't see the monster that...
DEL TORO: Yeah.
GROSS: ...Other people see. And in fact, he thinks the creature is the spirit of the woods.
DEL TORO: Yes. And that was very important to me, that the three chapters were very distinct in style and very distinct in energy. The camerawork is very different. The color palette is very different. And I think that I would say, having seen most every version of "Frankenstein" on film, this is very unique. The scale of the movie, both being epic and intimate, is very unique. But the fairy tale breadth of it all and the parable - it feels like a parable of the prodigal father, I'd say, jokingly.
GROSS: Are you trying to interpret Frankenstein? People always call the monster Frankenstein.
DEL TORO: Yeah. That's a mistake that came...
GROSS: Yeah, that's...
DEL TORO: ...From a play, yeah.
GROSS: Yeah. So are you trying to compare the creature in "Frankenstein" to Jesus?
DEL TORO: I think so. I mean, I think the parallels are very, very curious. I triangulate the creature with Jesus and Pinocchio.
GROSS: Yeah, in your version of Pinocchio, and I don't know if this is in other stories or in the original fairy tale, Geppetto, who creates the puppet, Pinocchio, also has built or carved, I should say, a huge depiction of...
DEL TORO: Jesus.
GROSS: ...Jesus being crucified.
DEL TORO: Yeah.
GROSS: And for the church.
DEL TORO: Yeah, no, that's completely original, too.
GROSS: That's original?
DEL TORO: Yes. To me, the myths are very related. The two biggest mysteries in the Bible for me growing up - and I am a lapsed Catholic. But the two mysteries were the Book of Job, in which man questions God, why do bad things happen to good people? And the answer, basically, of God is, why not?
(LAUGHTER)
DEL TORO: You know?
GROSS: It's very comforting the way you put it (laughter).
DEL TORO: Well, that's the way God put it. He says, who are you to question my wisdom? You were not there when I created the world, basically.
GROSS: When we talked a few years ago, you mentioned that your grandmother, who was very Catholic.
DEL TORO: Very.
GROSS: Exorcised you. And not exercise, but as an exorcism. She exorcised you twice.
DEL TORO: Yeah, with the Holy Water, yeah.
GROSS: Did you feel like people saw you as unholy and a sacrilege in the same way that people see the creature in "Frankenstein"?
DEL TORO: Yeah, in so many ways, yeah.
GROSS: And even Pinocchio.
DEL TORO: Yeah.
GROSS: When Pinocchio is kind of rowdy in church because he's never been there before, he doesn't understand what church is, the people in the church call him unholy and a sacrilege.
DEL TORO: Well, you know, I'm very used to not fitting. I'm always looking through the window into the world, you know, a little bit with a set of thoughts and a set of principles and ideas that don't necessarily conform. So my grandmother was in great pain that I would draw monsters all day. I would talk about the Bible, asking questions that were maybe too poignant. You know, but we loved each other. And that is salient in my movies. No matter how different we were, we can love each other. And that is, again, in "Frankenstein." There's "Frankenstein" in all my movies from "Cronos" all the way to "Pinocchio." Every single movie. I hesitate to think of one that doesn't have elements of it.
GROSS: Well, let me reintroduce you. If you're just joining us, my guest is filmmaker Guillermo del Toro. His new film is the reimagining of "Frankenstein," and it's called "Frankenstein." We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.
(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)
GROSS: This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with filmmaker Guillermo del Toro. He wrote and directed the new film "Frankenstein," a new interpretation of the story inspired by Mary Shelley's 1818 novel. He also loves the 1931 film, which starred Boris Karloff as the creature. He first saw it when he was 7.
You could say in some ways that, like, the creature in "Frankenstein" is like artificial intelligence, because he's created by man but then lives on its own and can destroy man, you know, without even understanding quite what he's doing. So what are your thoughts about AI? And did that kind of inform the movie in any way?
DEL TORO: It did and it didn't. It didn't in the sense that my concern is not artificial intelligence, but natural stupidity. I think that's what drives most of the world's worst teachers. But I did want to have the arrogance of Victor be similar in some ways to the tech bros, you know? He's kind of blind, creating something without considering the consequences, you know? And I think we have to take a pause and consider where we're going. If you have to teach an AI to think in ones and zeros - you know, oh, my God, I would love for a generation to get raising kids right one time, one time.
In the entire history of mankind, there hasn't been a single generation that was raised right all across the globe. And I think that's our biggest failure in a way, you know? Ones and zeros don't get the alchemy that you get with emotion and experience. You get the information, but you don't get the alchemy of emotion, spirituality and feeling. I'm not saying it's impossible to replicate. But we have it readily available with the next generation of children. And that's why the painful thing that Jacob Elordi and Victor enact is a father and son relationship that is very relatable in the film, very relatable and very moving by the end.
GROSS: Did you take advantage of any AI in making Frankenstein?
DEL TORO: AI, particularly generative AI, I am not interested, nor will I ever be interested. I'm 61, and I hope to be able to remain uninterested in using it at all until I croak.
GROSS: (Laughter).
DEL TORO: I really don't. The other day, somebody wrote me an email, said, what is your stance on AI? And my answer was very short. I said, I'd rather die.
GROSS: Oh, those are strong words.
DEL TORO: Not for me. I'm Mexican. I think...
GROSS: (Laughter).
DEL TORO: But I think, Terry, that even when a human sings a song that has already been recorded six, seven times, they're filtering their experience, their life. I often think of, you know, Johnny Cash singing "Hurt," the Trent Reznor song, and making it entirely his own. Or Joe Cocker singing the Beatles. You know, that's not a version. That's not remixing. That is filtering through alchemical pain and experience a work of art into making it your own.
GROSS: The creature in "Frankenstein" is endowed with eternal life in your film.
DEL TORO: Yes. Cursed, cursed.
GROSS: Well, that's what I was going to ask you. What do you think about - you know, his eternal life is hell. The creature is alone. And he wants to end his tormented life, but he can't. There's no one in the world who's like him, and Dr. Frankenstein refuses to make a companion for him. And the creature says, there was only one remedy for pain - death. And you took that away from me too. After the creature survived something that other people assume would've killed him, he says, there was silence and then merciless life. I felt lonelier than ever. So when you think of eternal life, do you think that that's torment?
DEL TORO: Oh, I do. I'm a huge fan of death.
GROSS: (Laughter).
DEL TORO: I'm a groupie for death. I think it's the metronome of our existence. And without rhythm, there is no melody, you know? It is the metronome of death that makes us value the compass of the beautiful music, you know? I'm going to say, this comes - when my father was taken, every day was torment, and I used to see the sun rising and resent it. And I said, the sun doesn't care about my pain. But then eventually, I realized it was my pain that didn't care about the sun and that I needed to change that, that I needed to accept it. I needed to understand that the rhythm of the cosmos is different than that of my little heart, you know?
GROSS: You mentioned the fear of death every day that your father was held hostage - kidnapped for ransom. Of course, you'd be worried about death then. I mean, it was the threat of death hanging over him, and his life was in your hands to save. Putting that aside, as major as that is, did you have a fear of death growing up and as a...
DEL TORO: Yes.
GROSS: ...Young man?
DEL TORO: Yes, as a young man. And my grandmother and I had a very precarious sense of death and life. My grandmother would say goodnight to me every day and say, let us pray that I'm here tomorrow. And that is very - that is pretty intense for a 4 or 5-year-old to hear. And I would spend - sometimes I would sleep at the foot of her bed, and I would be listening in the dark for her breathing. And if the breathing ceased even for two seconds, I would be jolted and take a look to see if she was OK. And that stayed with me for many decades. It's - I don't fear it anymore. I don't fear that anymore. I fear losing people, yes, but me, I'm not afraid of dying, I hope.
You know, really, Terry, all these great questions, you know, when they get resolved? Right when the lights flutter and you are no longer a director or a general or a pope. Right when you become just you and the lights are flickering out, that's when you realize what you did or didn't do in your life. And that's the most momentous thing anyone can experience. And I - and you can go with great agitation or great peace.
GROSS: We were talking earlier about the "Book Of Job."
DEL TORO: Yes.
GROSS: You asked your cast to read the "Book Of Job."
DEL TORO: Yes, and the Tao. Yeah.
GROSS: What did you want them to take from it?
DEL TORO: Because ultimately that's the plea of the creature too. And the plea of the creature is why? You know, why do this thing happened to me? And the answer comes at the end. The final image of the film is what tells you what we can do. I mean, acceptance is so profound. You know, we are building a culture in which we have the idea of what things should be. And when they don't happen, you can feel frustrated, rebel against them. But at the end of the day, they are what they are. Marty Scorsese tackled the same sort of question in "The Irishman." And the answer is very, very beautiful. He says, it is what it is. You know, that's the "Book Of Job" - it is what it is. And the Tao says all pain comes from desire, which is absolutely true. You want more awards. You want more money. You find yourself in pain. I do, you know? But if you don't want more, there's a zero that gives you peace. And the same with life.
GROSS: So you found feeling insignificant...
DEL TORO: All great.
GROSS: ...Liberating.
DEL TORO: Liberating, which can happen with reviews.
(LAUGHTER)
GROSS: Do you read them?
DEL TORO: Not anymore. Not anymore. I'm 61. I don't. But I did. I did. Oh, my God. When I was younger, I would read every single one until I found the one that would never leave my brain. I remember a few that are really well-phrased.
GROSS: Do you want to quote one?
DEL TORO: Well, J. Hoberman of The Village Voice wrote a great - he put down "Blade II." Beautiful. He said, the only thing remotely scary about "Blade II" is that it's done by the same man that did "Devil's Backbone," which is beautiful.
(LAUGHTER)
DEL TORO: So...
GROSS: On that note, let me reintroduce you again. We have to take a break. If you're just joining us, my guest is filmmaker Guillermo del Toro. He wrote and directed the new film "Frankenstein" - his own interpretation of the Frankenstein story, inspired by Mary Shelley's 1818 novel. We'll be back after a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.
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GROSS: This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with filmmaker Guillermo del Toro. He wrote and directed the new film "Frankenstein," a new interpretation of the story inspired by Mary Shelley's 1818 novel. He also fell in love at the age of 7 with the 1931 film "Frankenstein," which starred Boris Karloff as the creature. The creature is played by Jacob Elordi in the new film. Dr. Victor Frankenstein, the surgeon who creates the creature and brings it to life, is played by Oscar Isaac. Del Toro's other films include "Pan's Labyrinth," "The Shape Of Water," "Nightmare Alley," a stop motion animation PG reimagining of the Pinocchio story and two Hellboy movies.
I want to talk with you about the 1931 film "Frankenstein," which was directed by James Whale, who also directed the first film version of "Show Boat," which is quite a contrast (laughter).
DEL TORO: And the first version of "Waterloo Bridge," which is his version is so brutal and sort of Brechtian. He was a very interesting director and a very interesting man.
GROSS: Well, you know, I watched that movie so many times when I was a child because it used to be run frequently on "Million Dollar Movie" in New York. And they would show one movie and run it over and over all week. And then I watched it again a few nights ago because I wanted to refresh my memory. And part of what I love about the movie is just the otherworldliness of it. The cinematography is so good. And it reminds me of, like, film noir, German expressionism. And it's misty, it's stormy, it's dreamlike.
DEL TORO: It's very modern, by the way.
GROSS: Yeah.
DEL TORO: Yeah. I mean, for 1931, this film, Whale and a lot of this era of Hollywood filmmaker is extremely influenced by German cinema. And to the point where Whale does an artifice that is not apparent to the audience until you tell them to look for it. If the shadows on the set didn't fall the way Whale liked it, he would spray paint them.
GROSS: Whoa, really?
DEL TORO: Yeah. There's a lot of shadows on the window that don't correspond to the light that is being poured on the set. And the light is - the shadows are painted with spray paint on the walls. And nobody knows. Now that I told you, if you watch it again, you'll see it here and there.
GROSS: Did the style of filmmaking - the shadows, the lighting, the mist, the nightmarish quality of the images - did that influence you as a filmmaker?
DEL TORO: It did up to a certain point, and it did only on certain movies. Like, for example, in "Pinocchio," the creation of Pinocchio is shot like a horror film. But the creation of the creature in this film is shown like a concert, like a joyful cornucopia of anatomical parts, blood, ligaments and muscles, which has never been shown in any other versions before. But to me, it was mandatory because I wanted to see Victor at his professional best and at his artistic best. So I talked to my composer, Alexandre Desplat. And I said, we're going to do it with a waltz. And I'm going to shoot it like a like a fun-filled concert of anatomical parts.
GROSS: Did you study anatomy in order to do that?
DEL TORO: Yes. First of all, I've been obsessed by medicine and anatomy. I was the world's youngest hypochondriac when I was a kid. I would come to my...
GROSS: (Laughter) Congratulations. That's quite an achievement.
DEL TORO: It is. And there must be a Boy Scout patch for that. But I went to my mother every day and I said, Mother, I think I have trichinosis of the brain. Mother, I have cirrhosis. You know, I read an entire encyclopedia of health as a kid, and I've been very taken by anatomy ever since. And we had a Victorian consultant. And I used an entire medical library that I purchased from 1835. I bought it in London, and I used it to make sure the terms and the procedures were up to speed but not too advanced.
GROSS: What did you tell your collaborators about what you wanted your Frankenstein to look like? Because he looks nothing like Boris Karloff.
DEL TORO: No.
GROSS: I don't just mean his face. But he doesn't have, like, a bolt in his neck.
DEL TORO: No, no.
GROSS: He doesn't look all stitched together.
DEL TORO: What I was trying to capture is the beautiful style of the illustrations of an American artist called Bernie Wrightson, who illustrated for me the best illustrated version of the novel ever, and who collaborated with me earlier on. And it has a very irony and very doomed, very "Wuthering Heights" sort of look of a doomed hero. And when he's first born, and he's bald and almost naked, I wanted it to feel like an anatomical chart, like something newly minted. Not a repair job on an ICU victim, but the skills of Victor, his exquisite sense of design. The head is patterned after phrenology manuals from the 1800s. So they have very elegant, almost aerodynamic lines. I wanted this alabaster or marble statue feel. So it feels like a newly minted human being. And we also tried to make it the way I remember the Jesus images, life-sized in the churches of my childhood.
GROSS: The original "Frankenstein" movie is so dreamlike, nightmare-like. And I think several of your films have very nightmarish imagery in it.
DEL TORO: Yes.
GROSS: I read you were a lucid dreamer.
DEL TORO: Yes, as a kid.
GROSS: As a kid.
DEL TORO: Yeah.
GROSS: So explain what you mean when you say a lucid dreamer?
DEL TORO: A lucid dream for me - or waking nightmares it used to be called, too - is you wake up in your dream in the exact environment that you fell asleep in. But there are elements that are not normal. I used to see monsters. I saw a burning figure at the foot of my bed, which is where the burning archangel comes in "Frankenstein." And that figure extended its arms and said, I live. And I woke up screaming. When I was a very young child, I used to see a fawn. A goat man come from behind an armoire while the church chimed midnight in the neighborhood. And with each chime, the figure would come up. And then you wake up and nothing is there. And you're covered in sweat. And that's sort of lucid dreaming or waking nightmare states, which are a disruption of the REM cycle on the brain. But to you as a kid, it's truly harrowing.
GROSS: So you would dream that you woke up...
DEL TORO: Yes. Exactly.
GROSS: ... And escaped the nightmare...
DEL TORO: Yeah.
GROSS: ...Only to find that the nightmare is still...
DEL TORO: Standing there.
GROSS: Is going on. So it makes the nightmare seem even more like reality.
DEL TORO: Yes, which is why one of the best images in the novel of Mary Shelley's "Frankenstein" is - had never been rendered on film until now. And it was my favorite moment reading it as a - at age 11, I read the novel. And it's the moment Victor wakes up from the night of creation, and the creature is standing at the foot of the bed looking back at him. As a kid, I held my breath. I was shocked, and I prayed for decades that I could make that moment come to life on a film before anyone, and fortunately, nobody did it.
GROSS: Well, we have to take a short break here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Guillermo del Toro. He wrote and directed the new film "Frankenstein," a new interpretation of the story. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.
(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)
GROSS: This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Guillermo del Toro. He wrote and directed the new film "Frankenstein," a new interpretation of the story inspired by Mary Shelley's 1818 novel. When we left off, we were talking about how as a child, del Toro experienced lucid dreaming or waking nightmares. That's when you think you've awakened from a nightmare, but you haven't really. You're just dreaming you woke up, and the nightmare continues.
Do you think that your lucid dreams when you were a child relate to how you fell in love with movies when you were a child?
DEL TORO: Yes. Yes.
GROSS: Because movies are so dreamlike...
DEL TORO: Yes.
GROSS: ...But they might haunt your dreams. You might be afraid of them, but you're not literally going to think that you live in that world.
DEL TORO: And you are absolutely right. The first film I saw was William Wyler's "Wuthering Heights," with Laurence Olivier. I went with my mother to a cinema downtown that was super cheap and showed very old movies. It was really gothic atmosphere with rain and the moors and Olivier. It's basically a ghost story in many ways, "Wuthering Heights." And I fell asleep full of fear. I dreamt my dream and woke up in the theater with the movie still playing. So exactly my first movie was part of a lucid dream. Exactly.
GROSS: Wow. What was your emotional reaction to that?
DEL TORO: You're looking at it.
GROSS: (Laughter).
DEL TORO: I mean, it - that's when I fell in love with gothic romance. And I was - I couldn't have been more than 4. Why do I know it? Because I remember the house we were living in where I was born, and my father won the lottery - the national lottery in 1969, which would make me 5 years old when we moved from that house to a giant house in the outskirts of the city.
GROSS: Your father won the lottery. Like...
DEL TORO: Yeah, in 1969.
GROSS: ...How much money did he win?
DEL TORO: Six million dollars in '69.
GROSS: Whoa.
DEL TORO: Which is the entire budget of "Planet Of The Apes."
(LAUGHTER)
GROSS: That's amazing. How did it...
DEL TORO: Yeah.
GROSS: ...Change your life?
DEL TORO: Completely. I mean, completely. We moved into a house and lived a very sort of strange life. I mean, we had all sorts of pets. We had eagles, a pet lion, 30 dogs, deer.
GROSS: A what? Oh, boy. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. You had a zoo.
DEL TORO: Yeah, we had, like, a zoo, and we had - I could go like Danny in "The Shining." I could go on my tricycle for hours in the long corridors. Sometimes, like a magic realism novel, I would go for weeks without seeing a single adult. I would find food in the fridge. I would find clean clothes on my drawers, and I didn't interact with many adults. I would just, you know, exist in a mysterious life in an enchanted castle.
GROSS: Six million dollars was a lot more then than it is now.
DEL TORO: Oh, it was. And one of the things he did is he bought a library and filled it with books that he never read, but I read them all. And that's where I read the "Encyclopedia Of Anatomy And Health" (ph). And that's where I read all my classics, you know, "Moby Dick," "Tom Sawyer," "Huckleberry Finn," Edgar Allan Poe, Oscar Wilde.
GROSS: Wow. So what happened to the money? Because he was held for a million-dollar ransom...
DEL TORO: Yeah. Yeah.
GROSS: ...About 30 years later...
DEL TORO: Yes.
GROSS: And didn't have the money.
DEL TORO: Well, what happened is my dad controlled every cent. None of us had access to that money. My father raised us - he would say, you want? And I would say, I want to buy film for my camera, and he would say, OK, go to the car dealership and clean all the cars all week. And Saturday, I'll give you a third of it. You come back another three weeks, I'll buy you a reel of Super 8. He didn't want to raise us as if we had everything. So, you know, none of us had access to that money. He had the money to pay for the ransom, but none of us could access it.
GROSS: Oh.
DEL TORO: Yeah. I had some money left from "Mimic." When he was kidnapped, I put it all in. Friends of his gave us loans. It's a long story, and not a very pleasant one about the nature of humanity, but we managed to collect it. We had a negotiator that came from England, and that negotiation was paid by Jim Cameron who has been my friend for more than 30 years.
GROSS: The director...
DEL TORO: The director, yeah. We were friends, yeah.
GROSS: ...Who directed "Titanic" among other films.
DEL TORO: Titanic, "Terminator 2," "Avatar." Yeah.
GROSS: Did your father ever pay you back?
DEL TORO: Yeah, eventually. I mean, that was a source of disconnect. I had to move to Texas, and for a couple of years, you know, we didn't stay in very close contact. He - you know, it's too personal to discuss, but, you know, eventually, he came around and he did pay me back, and we - I think we ended up in great love and great understanding of the fact that my dad was not my dad. He was a guy that played my dad on my particular sitcom, you know? And my dad and I understood each other. We're, at the end of the day, very similar and very different, but I loved him so much.
GROSS: So I have to ask - you live in LA. There's been quite a large ICE crackdown there. And you're Mexican. You have an accent.
DEL TORO: Yeah. Oh, yeah.
GROSS: Has anybody from ICE stopped you and asked for your papers?
DEL TORO: Not yet, but if we ever meet in person, I'll show you. I have a wallet the size of a leather portfolio, and I always carry my papers. I have been stopped in the past and asked to show my papers in the past and ask pointed questions in the past, pulled aside in immigration in the past. So I have all my papers with me at all times. And it is a very difficult time when there is no voice for the other. And I think that understanding that the other is you is crucial.
GROSS: Well, you experienced that when you were very young, too.
DEL TORO: Exile has been momentous and extremely traumatic. I haven't processed it, but I did it in the best way possible. I looked for a home in Spain. I looked for a home in Toronto. I made a home in Toronto, in a way. And I - you know, when I go to Mexico, I love going to Mexico, and at the same time, I have to admit that I get a sort of PTSD here and there, you know?
GROSS: PTSD?
DEL TORO: Yeah. I feel like something may happen at any moment or...
GROSS: Because of the kidnapping?
DEL TORO: Yes, because, I mean, when it lasts 72 days, you go through all the stages of grief five times.
GROSS: Right.
DEL TORO: You know? It increased my sense of being unmoored in my existence, not belonging in my existence. You know, it reaffirmed that feeling that was originally from childhood. And now as an adult, I feel it in a different way. But, you know, as Marty Feldman puts it in "Young Frankenstein," it could be worse. It could be raining.
(LAUGHTER)
GROSS: Do you like "Young Frankenstein"?
DEL TORO: I adore it. That's a movie that is more - people think is based on the Whale movies. It's partially based on that. But more than any other movie - and I recommend this movie wholeheartedly - it's based very much on "Son Of Frankenstein," which is a great Frankenstein movie - really, really terrific.
GROSS: Do you have a favorite song from "Young Frankenstein"?
DEL TORO: (Laughter) Yes. I think that the point of disagreement between Gene Wilder and Mel Brooks, which is the most brilliant moment, is "Puttin' On The Ritz," of course.
GROSS: Yes.
DEL TORO: I think that's not only one of the greatest comedies ever made. It's one of the great Frankenstein movies ever made. It is so much its own identity that people believe erroneously that the blind hermit comes from "Young Frankenstein" sometimes. And it comes obviously from the novel and from "Bride Of Frankenstein," the Whale movie, which is an exquisite sequel to the first "Frankenstein."
GROSS: Guillermo del Toro, it's been such a pleasure talking with you.
DEL TORO: Same here.
GROSS: Thank you so much for coming...
DEL TORO: No.
GROSS: ...Back to the show.
DEL TORO: Always a pleasure. And thank you for the wisdom and the careful guiding of this lengthy interview, which I adored every second of.
GROSS: I really appreciate you saying that. I love talking with you.
DEL TORO: Same here.
GROSS: Guillermo del Toro wrote and directed the new film "Frankenstein."
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "YOUNG FRANKENSTEIN")
GENE WILDER: (As Dr. Frederick Frankenstein) Ladies and gentlemen, mesdames and messieurs, damen und herren, from what was once an inarticulate mass of lifeless tissues, may I now present a cultured, sophisticated man-about-town. Hit it.
(Singing) If you're blue and you don't know where to go to, why don't you go where fashion sits?
PETER BOYLE: (As the Monster, singing) Putting on the Ritz.
WILDER: (As Dr. Frederick Frankenstein, singing) Different types who wear a day coat, pants with stripes or cutaway coat. Perfect fits.
BOYLE: (As the Monster, singing) Putting on the Ritz.
WILDER: (As Dr. Frederick Frankenstein, singing) Dressed up like a million-dollar trooper, trying mighty hard to look like Gary Cooper.
BOYLE: (As the Monster, singing) Super-duper.
WILDER: (As Dr. Frederick Frankenstein, singing) Come, let's mix where Rockefellers walk with sticks or umbrellas in their mitts.
BOYLE: (As the Monster, singing) Putting on the Ritz.
GROSS: That was Gene Hackman (ph) and Peter Boyle from the film "Young Frankenstein." After we take a short break, Justin Chang reviews a new film by the Iranian filmmaker Jafar Panahi after he spent seven months in prison. The film won the top prize at the Cannes Film Festival. This is FRESH AIR.
(SOUNDBITE OF BILL EVANS TRIO'S "MILESTONES")
